Wednesday, April 29, 2009

Friday Night Salon Topics

Discussion topics for May 1:

1. The Friday Salon: should it be risky or safe? (I suppose for our purposes, here, this asks if conversation - commenting - should be risky or safe. I do a lot of "safe" commenting, rarely voicing my opinion if it is antagonistic to the poster.)

2. Political correctness & freedom of expression: to what extent does language affect culture?

3. Handshakes & foreign relations: should policy trump civility--or vice versa?

All comments are welcome - both safe and unsafe ;)

10 comments:

Amy said...

I just have to say I am happy I live in the USA for my freedom of speech.

Pam said...

Wow! What a thought provoking post.

1. I do pretty much the same thing. Sometimes I have disagreed about something minor - for instance my love of Shakespeare which the posted hated. But, I do it kindly and in a "gee whiz" kind of way. I'm not really here to ruffle people's feathers.

2. As for political correctness I do think it effects culture. Look what happened to poor Miss CA at the Miss USA Pageant. The whole "culture" was shocked when she didn't give a politically correct answer. I'm not sure we are a better nation for all our political correctness. I think we've confused tolerance with political correctness.

3. Foreign policy and civility. I'm not well versed in this, but I think civility is important at all times.

Pam said...

Now taht I've just reread my comment, I wonder if I may have ruffled any feathers with my answers. But, then again you asked for our opinion. Hmmm... something to think about.

Kathy B! said...

1) I pretty much dance around the issue with a comment to avoid ruffling the poster's feathers... Unless they specifically ask for my opinion and even then I try to offer it in a way that's both honest and civil.

2) I agree with Pam. I support everyone's right to their opinion, but being so PC causes everyone to be sooo homogenous.

3) THis one I'll leave to the others :)

Christine said...

1. To quote Jamie, "how important is it?" I think one's answer to that might determine how much is said and how much is withheld. I censor myself all the time, make the safe comment (or don't comment) because it's not important enough to me to poke someone else. But sometimes it is...

2. This question has two parts and I'm struggling to understand how they are related. We can certainly have a discussion about political correctness, but how does that relate to culture? I think that political correctness can be a double-edged sword, but I see some positive cultural outcomes associated with our cognizance of our word choice. When I ask someone not to use the word "homo" or "fag", I'm not asking them to vote for equal marriage rights; I'm just asking for them to realize that the person they're talking about is just that, a person. So to an extent "political correctness" is just about being aware of the labels I'm using for people. At least that's how I think of that term.
When that concept gets extended to the point where people feel that they cannot have or express an opinion about an issue, then that is a problem. The example of Miss CA is a good one to explore. If she had said something about "those fags", we would have all been rightfully more appalled at her. If you want to call that "political correctness" I guess you could, but really it's just respectful of the humanity of homosexuals. What happened when she spoke was gloriously American -- she got booed AND applauded. And she lost... but not because people with similar beliefs are oppressed. She lost because the guy who asked her the question was gay. Know your audience, especially if he's selecting the winner.
There is something weird going on with the term "political correctness." I think it gets used when people feel they're being kept from being able to comfortably express their views -- "I wanted to say I disagreed but it wouldn't be 'politically correct'". This kind of links to what I said in #1, how we need to choose our battles in any given situation. But the Miss CA example is a great one to show that that kind of oppression is NOT going on. Not only was she booed and applauded at the time, but there was much discussion of the fairness of her being judged for that opinion. The DISCUSSION is what is important, that we can have it and hopefully have it in a civil way. Which leads me to...

3. There is always room for civility. Civility: an act of showing regard for others. It's about respecting someone else, and to me that is absolutely vital when it comes to policy, especially foreign policy. There's so much room for misunderstanding when two cultures meet. The basic respect of the humanity of others should be the basis of how we interact with everyone. That doesn't mean you don't get tough with people, that you're a pushover, that you're a wuss or soft. It means that you realize that a person is a person. Any assumption that the person you are dealing with is somehow less human than you are is dangerous. In fact, I'd say it is blasphemous.

Jen said...

I don't typically comment on your Salon Topics because honestly I don't feel like I am educated enough! Ok I am not smart enough! Hee!!

But since you made number 1 about blogging and commenting then I'll give you my 2 cents. I too typically play it safe! What can I say I hate confrontation! Typically if I disagree with what's been said I will just not respond! In fact that tends to be the story of my life! When I don't want to deal with the big elephant in the room I'll just IGNORE it until it's so huge I HAVE to finally do something about it!!

I have something SUPER waiting for you over on my blog!!

Ginger said...

Thank you guys SO MUCH for commenting. I know it is brave putting yourselves out there like that. It is for me too. (And you are ALL smart enough to contribute; every comment is valid!

I am writing my response and I want to respond to you, too, both here and on your blogs. I need a little more time,though. (sick baby and sick momma + TAKS test all week = NO TIME)

Hopefully I'll have it all posted soon

maria said...

I'll let Samantha & Carrie from SATC say it for me. "If women continuously gave men oral sex, we could rule the world." "Yes, and we'd still have our hands free to greet visiting dignitaries."

Ginger said...

1. I suppose that in the blogosphere one can get an array of comments from people, but I’ve noticed that people tend to stay in their comfort zones. I think that’s true of the way we interact with people in general. We stay where we feel safe. We speak safely with people with whom we share the same opinion. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing because there is something to be said for taking refuge in comfort zones, but I am saying that in a forum –a salon – where we ought to feel secure in being able to voice our ideas freely, without penalty, we should take risks. Otherwise what’s the point? Salon is supposed to be a way to suggest and further new ideas, a place where people respect each other enough to be challenging without being crude or offensive. In a perfect world, salon is an agent of change – it plants seeds and takes one beyond their comfort zones. If it isn’t doing this, it’s more of a politically correct cocktail party.

2. Language absolutely effects culture. Language has always been about politics (and political correctness) in that it determined who was conquering whom. Look at the Anglo-Saxon language v. the French Latin. The Anglo-Saxon language is more brutish – one word grunt sounding. The French Latin has always been considered the language of the upper class – the class that has control. In this way, language , politically correct or not, is certainly tied to culture. Even in this day and age, if you are ineloquent, you are crude.

Being politically correct or incorrect has always been a representation of class, determined by who is in charge – and I’m not just talking about using inoffensive language (as in racist remarks) ; it isn’t just about not saying the wrong thing, it includes saying the things society says you ought to say. If you don’t maintain the popular opinion and if you don’t speak in a manner that promotes the popular opinion, you are considered “wrong” or crude. This determination depends on which circle you are standing in at the moment.

I’ll admit that our culture is more accepting of conflicting ideas. In this country culture is determined by which part of which state one lives in. If your opinion differs from that of your neighbors, it is politically correct to “politely” keep it to yourself; otherwise you are open to ridicule and humiliation. In short, you are ousted from the community. This is not freedom of speech. This is containment of speech. It is stifling.

3. Civility and Policy should be married. (!) Why does one have to trump the other?

Ginger said...

And here are my responses to you:

Amy, I agree. I'm glad we have the freedoms we have.

Pam - Thanks for being so considerate. :) I usually try not to ruffle feathers, either, but sometimes when I do, I'm a little proud of myself.. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. I have been living under a rock (with an 11 month old baby) and missed the whole Miss CA thing. I need to look it up. I agree, though, that people confuse tolerance with being pc. It's like here in Texas we say things like, "Can you believe what so and so did, bless her heart!". The "bless your heart" part makes it ok to gossip somehow. It makes it pc.

Kathy, I love the way you included civility with the first response. Maybe that's the difference. If you promote your idea civilly, then you've done it correctly. Sometimes feathers get the most ruffled when one's response is polite. The original poster can't be mad in that case, which makes him/her more mad for not having any justification for his/her anger. Did that make sense?
Also, on #2, Yes. But some (related to me) would argue that being homogeneous is a good thing - it's what we know. I would agree with you. Life would be incredibly boring if we were any more homogenous than we inadvertently are.

Christine - as usual your brain finished my sentence - or arranged it in a way that I meant it to sound. For #2 I think that our culture is unique in it's pc-ness. I'm pretty certain that there are places that aren't as concerned about being in good graces socially, especially in relation to the rest of the world. Maybe that's what the question is asking. But I think you make excellent points about pc-ness being valuable in that it at least makes us stop and think about our word choices. I seriously need to look up this Miss CA thing. But also, I like that you mentioned discussion. Love it. And for #3 - there you go with all that blasphemy talk again ;) Oh wait. That's me.

Jen - I LOVED that you responded because you are so flippin' smart and your response IS valid! I think alot of people identify with the metaphor you used. It's hard to confront people, especially in a space where you can't hear tone. I struggle with this too, because part of commenting in the blogosphere is trying to identify with people and build community. You want them to respect you and your opinions, so when the two don't meet, it absolutely causes stress.

Maria - you made me laugh out loud! I love SATC! Why the hell are we still second class citizens in this patriarchy? We wield so much more power than we know. ;)

You guys are great!

Wednesday, April 29, 2009

Friday Night Salon Topics

Discussion topics for May 1:

1. The Friday Salon: should it be risky or safe? (I suppose for our purposes, here, this asks if conversation - commenting - should be risky or safe. I do a lot of "safe" commenting, rarely voicing my opinion if it is antagonistic to the poster.)

2. Political correctness & freedom of expression: to what extent does language affect culture?

3. Handshakes & foreign relations: should policy trump civility--or vice versa?

All comments are welcome - both safe and unsafe ;)

10 comments:

Amy said...

I just have to say I am happy I live in the USA for my freedom of speech.

Pam said...

Wow! What a thought provoking post.

1. I do pretty much the same thing. Sometimes I have disagreed about something minor - for instance my love of Shakespeare which the posted hated. But, I do it kindly and in a "gee whiz" kind of way. I'm not really here to ruffle people's feathers.

2. As for political correctness I do think it effects culture. Look what happened to poor Miss CA at the Miss USA Pageant. The whole "culture" was shocked when she didn't give a politically correct answer. I'm not sure we are a better nation for all our political correctness. I think we've confused tolerance with political correctness.

3. Foreign policy and civility. I'm not well versed in this, but I think civility is important at all times.

Pam said...

Now taht I've just reread my comment, I wonder if I may have ruffled any feathers with my answers. But, then again you asked for our opinion. Hmmm... something to think about.

Kathy B! said...

1) I pretty much dance around the issue with a comment to avoid ruffling the poster's feathers... Unless they specifically ask for my opinion and even then I try to offer it in a way that's both honest and civil.

2) I agree with Pam. I support everyone's right to their opinion, but being so PC causes everyone to be sooo homogenous.

3) THis one I'll leave to the others :)

Christine said...

1. To quote Jamie, "how important is it?" I think one's answer to that might determine how much is said and how much is withheld. I censor myself all the time, make the safe comment (or don't comment) because it's not important enough to me to poke someone else. But sometimes it is...

2. This question has two parts and I'm struggling to understand how they are related. We can certainly have a discussion about political correctness, but how does that relate to culture? I think that political correctness can be a double-edged sword, but I see some positive cultural outcomes associated with our cognizance of our word choice. When I ask someone not to use the word "homo" or "fag", I'm not asking them to vote for equal marriage rights; I'm just asking for them to realize that the person they're talking about is just that, a person. So to an extent "political correctness" is just about being aware of the labels I'm using for people. At least that's how I think of that term.
When that concept gets extended to the point where people feel that they cannot have or express an opinion about an issue, then that is a problem. The example of Miss CA is a good one to explore. If she had said something about "those fags", we would have all been rightfully more appalled at her. If you want to call that "political correctness" I guess you could, but really it's just respectful of the humanity of homosexuals. What happened when she spoke was gloriously American -- she got booed AND applauded. And she lost... but not because people with similar beliefs are oppressed. She lost because the guy who asked her the question was gay. Know your audience, especially if he's selecting the winner.
There is something weird going on with the term "political correctness." I think it gets used when people feel they're being kept from being able to comfortably express their views -- "I wanted to say I disagreed but it wouldn't be 'politically correct'". This kind of links to what I said in #1, how we need to choose our battles in any given situation. But the Miss CA example is a great one to show that that kind of oppression is NOT going on. Not only was she booed and applauded at the time, but there was much discussion of the fairness of her being judged for that opinion. The DISCUSSION is what is important, that we can have it and hopefully have it in a civil way. Which leads me to...

3. There is always room for civility. Civility: an act of showing regard for others. It's about respecting someone else, and to me that is absolutely vital when it comes to policy, especially foreign policy. There's so much room for misunderstanding when two cultures meet. The basic respect of the humanity of others should be the basis of how we interact with everyone. That doesn't mean you don't get tough with people, that you're a pushover, that you're a wuss or soft. It means that you realize that a person is a person. Any assumption that the person you are dealing with is somehow less human than you are is dangerous. In fact, I'd say it is blasphemous.

Jen said...

I don't typically comment on your Salon Topics because honestly I don't feel like I am educated enough! Ok I am not smart enough! Hee!!

But since you made number 1 about blogging and commenting then I'll give you my 2 cents. I too typically play it safe! What can I say I hate confrontation! Typically if I disagree with what's been said I will just not respond! In fact that tends to be the story of my life! When I don't want to deal with the big elephant in the room I'll just IGNORE it until it's so huge I HAVE to finally do something about it!!

I have something SUPER waiting for you over on my blog!!

Ginger said...

Thank you guys SO MUCH for commenting. I know it is brave putting yourselves out there like that. It is for me too. (And you are ALL smart enough to contribute; every comment is valid!

I am writing my response and I want to respond to you, too, both here and on your blogs. I need a little more time,though. (sick baby and sick momma + TAKS test all week = NO TIME)

Hopefully I'll have it all posted soon

maria said...

I'll let Samantha & Carrie from SATC say it for me. "If women continuously gave men oral sex, we could rule the world." "Yes, and we'd still have our hands free to greet visiting dignitaries."

Ginger said...

1. I suppose that in the blogosphere one can get an array of comments from people, but I’ve noticed that people tend to stay in their comfort zones. I think that’s true of the way we interact with people in general. We stay where we feel safe. We speak safely with people with whom we share the same opinion. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing because there is something to be said for taking refuge in comfort zones, but I am saying that in a forum –a salon – where we ought to feel secure in being able to voice our ideas freely, without penalty, we should take risks. Otherwise what’s the point? Salon is supposed to be a way to suggest and further new ideas, a place where people respect each other enough to be challenging without being crude or offensive. In a perfect world, salon is an agent of change – it plants seeds and takes one beyond their comfort zones. If it isn’t doing this, it’s more of a politically correct cocktail party.

2. Language absolutely effects culture. Language has always been about politics (and political correctness) in that it determined who was conquering whom. Look at the Anglo-Saxon language v. the French Latin. The Anglo-Saxon language is more brutish – one word grunt sounding. The French Latin has always been considered the language of the upper class – the class that has control. In this way, language , politically correct or not, is certainly tied to culture. Even in this day and age, if you are ineloquent, you are crude.

Being politically correct or incorrect has always been a representation of class, determined by who is in charge – and I’m not just talking about using inoffensive language (as in racist remarks) ; it isn’t just about not saying the wrong thing, it includes saying the things society says you ought to say. If you don’t maintain the popular opinion and if you don’t speak in a manner that promotes the popular opinion, you are considered “wrong” or crude. This determination depends on which circle you are standing in at the moment.

I’ll admit that our culture is more accepting of conflicting ideas. In this country culture is determined by which part of which state one lives in. If your opinion differs from that of your neighbors, it is politically correct to “politely” keep it to yourself; otherwise you are open to ridicule and humiliation. In short, you are ousted from the community. This is not freedom of speech. This is containment of speech. It is stifling.

3. Civility and Policy should be married. (!) Why does one have to trump the other?

Ginger said...

And here are my responses to you:

Amy, I agree. I'm glad we have the freedoms we have.

Pam - Thanks for being so considerate. :) I usually try not to ruffle feathers, either, but sometimes when I do, I'm a little proud of myself.. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. I have been living under a rock (with an 11 month old baby) and missed the whole Miss CA thing. I need to look it up. I agree, though, that people confuse tolerance with being pc. It's like here in Texas we say things like, "Can you believe what so and so did, bless her heart!". The "bless your heart" part makes it ok to gossip somehow. It makes it pc.

Kathy, I love the way you included civility with the first response. Maybe that's the difference. If you promote your idea civilly, then you've done it correctly. Sometimes feathers get the most ruffled when one's response is polite. The original poster can't be mad in that case, which makes him/her more mad for not having any justification for his/her anger. Did that make sense?
Also, on #2, Yes. But some (related to me) would argue that being homogeneous is a good thing - it's what we know. I would agree with you. Life would be incredibly boring if we were any more homogenous than we inadvertently are.

Christine - as usual your brain finished my sentence - or arranged it in a way that I meant it to sound. For #2 I think that our culture is unique in it's pc-ness. I'm pretty certain that there are places that aren't as concerned about being in good graces socially, especially in relation to the rest of the world. Maybe that's what the question is asking. But I think you make excellent points about pc-ness being valuable in that it at least makes us stop and think about our word choices. I seriously need to look up this Miss CA thing. But also, I like that you mentioned discussion. Love it. And for #3 - there you go with all that blasphemy talk again ;) Oh wait. That's me.

Jen - I LOVED that you responded because you are so flippin' smart and your response IS valid! I think alot of people identify with the metaphor you used. It's hard to confront people, especially in a space where you can't hear tone. I struggle with this too, because part of commenting in the blogosphere is trying to identify with people and build community. You want them to respect you and your opinions, so when the two don't meet, it absolutely causes stress.

Maria - you made me laugh out loud! I love SATC! Why the hell are we still second class citizens in this patriarchy? We wield so much more power than we know. ;)

You guys are great!